Now that Ive cooled off....

[Odin]

Clearly the United States is not a theocracy; I fail to see why the question is still twitching so deep in this conversation. Plenty liberals, myself included, are uncomfortable with the vociferous, almost brazenly religious character of the Bush administration, though--for some reason I'm thinking specifically of that allegorical statue of justice with the bare breast John Ashcroft "covered up" because it offended his Pentacostal sensibilities. It's appealing rhetoric, I grant you, but we do well to avoid it. Those sweeping accusations only damage our credibility and veil the real issues that lead to our complaints.

As far as abortion goes, I think certainly it's possible to be torn between the extremists, because they're all so strident that it's really tough to be in any way compelled by their accusatory screeds. Personally, I've softened a bit in the last year or so in my opinion on abortion. I think generally abortion is wrong. Our generation has access to birth control that works, so I think it's somewhat reprehensible to use it to terminate an unwanted pregnancy you just don't want. Without talking too much about the "rape and incest" cliche, because I think most right-thinking people agree that extreme measures are more tolerable in those situations, I think it's very difficult to marshal a legitimate reason to abort a fetus. That said, though, I think the genie has left the bottle with abortion. Hartmann, you argued that just because people would do it anyway is no reason to keep it legal, but I think your murder analogy is a little flawed. Nearly everybody considers murder reprehensible, but abortion, I think, is so completely integrated in society--that is to say there are so many people who think it's always or very nearly always acceptable, as evidenced in this thread--that trying to legislate it away would be foolish at best. I've really gotten a little wishy-washy in my opinions on abortion. I really don't know what I think. I think it's wrong in general, but I also have deep concerns for the health and reproductive rights of the mother, and I worry that restricting it or making it outright illegal might do more harm than good. I read an article in Newsweek just tonight about another article in the journal Conscience (kind of a liberal Catholic publication that supports abortion rights) and I agreed with a lot of it. It wasn't a piece on whether or not abortion is right or wrong or whatever, it was about how desperately we need to cast off the invective when we talk about why it is or isn't.

[Ryan H.]

Originally posted by Odin
Hartmann, you argued that just because people would do it anyway is no reason to keep it legal, but I think your murder analogy is a little flawed. Nearly everybody considers murder reprehensible, but abortion, I think, is so completely integrated in society--that is to say there are so many people who think it's always or very nearly always acceptable, as evidenced in this thread--that trying to legislate it away would be foolish at best.

It wasn't my intent to equate abortion to murder, in any way. My intent was to show that the reasoning that abortion should be legal because people will do it anyway is flawed itself.

There are many things that people will always do, whether it's legal or not. That's no reason, in and of itself, to legalize anything. It's a very flawed logic.

[Odin]

No, I know it wasn't, I just think the comparison sort of breaks down because of how deeply rooted the practice is in our society. Social prevalence may not be a reason to legalize something, but certainly it's something to consider when the discussion is about legislating something that's already accepted by so many people.

[Ryan H.]

I don't know about that. By that token, you could make arguments against gay adoption by citing its prevelance in society. I'm against gay adoption, but not because it's not an acceptable idea in society.

Just because an idea is popular does not make it right; same goes for an idea that is unpopular. Citing the popularity of an idea or concept as grounds for it being legalized/prohibited is an Appeal to Popularity Logical Fallacy.

If we were to legislate based on what ideas or beliefs were popular in culture, we still wouldn't have the Equal Rights Ammendment, women probably wouldn't have the right to vote, and laws against sodomy would still be 'constitutional'.

You can't cite popularity when arguing for an ideal you believe in, only to turn around and denounce it when arguing against one you don't.

[Odin]

It's not so much popularity I'm trying to appeal to, though. I'm only trying to be realistic. I never meant to say that just because abortion is "popular" (which is strange to say, to be sure) that it ought to be legal; I only wanted to suggest that since so many people do think it's legitimate, any concerted assault on Roe v. Wade would only do further damage to the discourse. I was only saying there's a practical difference between rendering illegal something like murder that everyone considers reprehensible and challenging something like abortion that's just part of the grain of our society. I hate to use the prohibition cliche, but I think it works reasonably well. Everybody drank in the 1920s, everybody has drunk since and everybody had drunk long before the amendment was ratified, so enforcement was nearly impossible, even though you could certainly marshal a reasonable argument that drinking is "wrong."

A tangent: I'm pretty sure the ERA's still twitching around in Congress, actually; I'm certain it was ever ratified. Maybe you're thinking of something else? Have I lost my mind?

[Voice]

Ryan

Murder is illegal.

Abortion is not.

Your analogy doesn't work really. Nearly every human being on earth agrees that murder is wrong. Even convicted Serial Killers admit their guilt for murdering people, and admit that what they did was wrong.

Abortion is Legal, Woman A getting an abortion has no effect whatsoever on you and I. nor does woman b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l......etc. It's their body, it's their fetus, it's their decision.

Make it illegal, and women will be forced to do what was done before abortion became a clinical practice. We all know it happened, we all know the facts. It WILL revert to it's original state if made illegal. It will NOT decrease the amount of abortions by any means, maybe a small percentage of women won't do it....but a small percentage of millions of women is nothing.

My reasoning for why we are close to becoming a theocracy is simply the present string of events immediately following the election. Plans that George W. Bush and camp have.....I never once said that we were in fact a Theocracy, we are a far cry from being one. I simply meant to imply that we need to be careful as a society when deciding for the majority.

Are moral issues important?

Yes they are, but they shouldn't distract us from the basic freedoms that we have been given by being born in this country. You may say that the country was founded on Morals, but it wasn't. It was founded on blood and mayhem.

If I seem to come off as thick-headed, i'm sorry. But one thing I feel very strongly about is my right to be who I am, and everyone elses right to do the same. Slowly I see those rights being threatened by the man we've empowered. Not yet, but the signs are there, if you can't see them you've been blinded by your moral values.

[KCAA]

Originally posted by Voice
Ryan

Murder is illegal.

Abortion is not.

Your analogy doesn't work really. Nearly every human being on earth agrees that murder is wrong. Even convicted Serial Killers admit their guilt for murdering people, and admit that what they did was wrong.

Abortion is Legal, Woman A getting an abortion has no effect whatsoever on you and I. nor does woman b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l......etc. It's their body, it's their fetus, it's their decision.

Make it illegal, and women will be forced to do what was done before abortion became a clinical practice. We all know it happened, we all know the facts. It WILL revert to it's original state if made illegal. It will NOT decrease the amount of abortions by any means, maybe a small percentage of women won't do it....but a small percentage of millions of women is nothing.

My reasoning for why we are close to becoming a theocracy is simply the present string of events immediately following the election. Plans that George W. Bush and camp have.....I never once said that we were in fact a Theocracy, we are a far cry from being one. I simply meant to imply that we need to be careful as a society when deciding for the majority.

Are moral issues important?

Yes they are, but they shouldn't distract us from the basic freedoms that we have been given by being born in this country. You may say that the country was founded on Morals, but it wasn't. It was founded on blood and mayhem.

If I seem to come off as thick-headed, i'm sorry. But one thing I feel very strongly about is my right to be who I am, and everyone elses right to do the same. Slowly I see those rights being threatened by the man we've empowered. Not yet, but the signs are there, if you can't see them you've been blinded by your moral values.

THANK YOU!!!!!

[Voice]

you're welcome.

However I am positive that Ryan will come back insulting my views on the state of our nation....implying that I am ill-informed and way to far to whatever the **** side he decides to put me.

I can't emphasize enough that I lean towards neither side. These are simply my opinions. If anything I am comfortabley seated exactly in the middle.

Do I believe that abortion is morally wrong? yes I do. Do I think it should be illegal? no I don't.

Just because I think it's morally wrong, doesn't give me the right to tell a woman she can't get one done in a safe environment.

[KCAA]

Originally posted by Voice
you're welcome.

However I am positive that Ryan will come back insulting my views on the state of our nation....implying that I am ill-informed and way to far to whatever the **** side he decides to put me.

I can't emphasize enough that I lean towards neither side. These are simply my opinions. If anything I am comfortabley seated exactly in the middle.

Do I believe that abortion is morally wrong? yes I do. Do I think it should be illegal? no I don't.

Just because I think it's morally wrong, doesn't give me the right to tell a woman she can't get one done in a safe environment.

Again, thank you. I, like you, have the same thoughts.

[Voice]

'spect.

(see my signature.)